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Here's the real deal on Dave Ramsey and debt

Posted Apr 16 2008, 09:43 AM by Karen Datko
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This post comes from partner blog The Dough Roller.

As much good as he does, Dave Ramsey drives me nuts with his extreme views on debt.

Ramsey, as he readily admits, did some really stupid things with debt. Leveraged to the hilt on bad real estate deals, he went bust in a way most of us could never imagine. As a real estate investor, my leverage and borrowing comes nowhere near the toxic level Ramsey went to.

Why? Because Ramsey's personality is one of extremes. Much like an alcoholic, he could not control his use of debt. He got one taste of that leverage, and he was borrowing before noon ever day.

Dave Ramsey is a recovering debtaholic

Now he is a recovering debtaholic. Like a recovering alcoholic, he should never borrow again. Why? He just can't handle it. Put Ramsey and debt together, and something really ugly develops.

OK, fine. But why should that apply to all of us? It's as if a recovering alcoholic were telling the rest of the world never to have a glass of wine. In other words, what works and doesn't work for Ramsey may not apply to everybody else. Of course, there are those who, like Dave, can't control debt and should avoid it just like he does.

But debt, if used wisely, can greatly improve your finances, can increase your financial freedom in the long run, and can greatly improve your balance sheet.

Own vs. lease: There's really no difference

Being debt-free does not automatically mean you've achieved financial freedom. For example, in the world of accounting, there are some intricate rules relating to how a company should account for a lease. Part of the reason for these rules is to prevent a company from appearing to improve its balance sheet when in reality it hasn't. 

For example, suppose a company owns a building and has a $1 million mortgage on the property. The mortgage is reported as a liability on the company's balance sheet. If it wanted to get that mortgage off its balance sheet, but still keep the building, it could sell the property and then lease it back from the buyer under a long-term lease. Is the company any better off? No, it has just changed the legal form of its ownership of the building. It's still obligated to pay for the building each month, but now the payment is called rent rather than a mortgage payment.

We can do the same thing renting a house or leasing a car. You may not have debt, but you do have financial obligations that require monthly payments. And you'll never own outright the thing you're paying for each month. The point is, being debt-free in and of itself won't necessarily get you the financial freedom you're looking for.

The real deal on debt

So here's the deal: Being debt-free is not the holy grail of financial freedom. My wife and I could be debt-free quite easily. We could sell our house, pay off all our debt, and have some money left over. I guess we'd then rent a house or apartment, and I would continue to go to work every day. Would we be more financially free? Nope. I suppose we could move to a less expensive area and perhaps even pay cash for a home. Would we be any more content in life? Nope. In fact, all we'd end up doing is uprooting our family and moving away from a place we love.

Now, the point here is not to run out and start borrowing. But I would suggest considering the following guidelines when it comes to borrowing money:

Avoid borrowing to buy something that's not a long-term hard asset. That means don't borrow to go on vacation or to go out to fancy restaurants or to line your closet with expensive clothes. One of the reasons we are financially free even though we have debt is that we have tangible assets behind the debt (our house, rental properties, a business) that we could sell if we wanted to and be debt-free. Once you take a vacation, you can't sell it to pay off the debt.

Keep total debt payments below 30% of your gross income. I know that for many this will be very difficult, particularly if you live in an expensive area. But I've found that if monthly debt payments exceed 30% of gross income, life gets very uncomfortable. And I should add that as you get older, this percentage should be going down. It should go down because your income should be going up, and it should also go down as you pay off debt.

Borrow wisely. We should all know by now the dangers of variable-rate mortgages. Mortgages should be 15- or 30-year fixed-rate loans. Take advantage of 0% credit card offers when it makes sense to do so. You can check out some 0% balance-transfer credit card offers and my 10 commandments on using 0% credit cards.

Don't spend today what you'll earn tomorrow. This ties into the first guideline above. The point is to control your spending, and don't let easy access to a loan send your spending out of control. There are plenty of free online budgeting tools you can use that will help you track and control your spending. Use whatever works best for you.

Dave Ramsey is entertaining, and I agree with a lot of what he preaches. If you choose to avoid debt as he does, I certainly won't tell you that's a bad decision. But I also believe that responsible borrowing can improve your finances with modest risk. So what do you think -- is Ramsey's approach to debt the right approach for everybody?

Other articles of interest at The Dough Roller:

"How to buy a refurbished iPhone"

"Dave Ramsey's Step No. 4: A visual guide to saving 15% for retirement in a Roth 401(k)"

 

"8 articles to help motivate you to improve your finances"

Comments

 

I think he only stated the obvious

Dave Ramsey is a realist more so than a "recovering debtaholic".  His program is based on/intended for the vast majority of Americans whose lack of financial discipline keeps them enslaved to the machine: unable to change jobs or take time off, under constant pressure, and without hope.  Simple and conservative will outperform clever and risky in the vast majority of cases, just as the tortoise will outperform the hare.  Ramsey also rails against consumerism and encourages charitable giving and imparting good money values to children, which you curiously fail to mention. That you and I might be able to cleverly use debt in a controlled, calculated manner does not make doing so appropriate for most people; those following his program will outperform those following your suggestions in most cases.  Mike.

Mike, I think Dave Ramsey does a lot of good.  I didn't mention charitable contributions or teaching children about money because that's not what the article is about.  It's about debt.  At the risk of sounding argumentative, I'm not sure why you view debt as "clever and risky" or that you and I might "cleverly use debt in a controlled, calculated manner."  My use of debt is "simple and conservative" in my opinion.  I do agree that consumerism is one of the major problems facing average Americans.  But consumerism and its negative consequences can exist without debt.  I guess that's really my point--we are the problem, not debt per se.  If one needs to remove all debt to keep themselves in check, they should.  But we don't all need to go to that extreme.

Should someone that can "afford" to buy a new car? Let's see, drive it off the lot, you've lost $4,000. Finance it for five years and you pay $3,000-$6,000 more than what the price was so for a 25,000 car, in five years, you pay 30,000 for something that's probably worth less than $15,000. Yeah, that makes sense.

Your point on your house is a little extreme. Dave doesn't advocate selling your home. He advocates not financing things like hardwood floors, cars, lawnmowers at Home Deopt etc. so while your point is well taken, you took it too far and to an extream that he does not advise.

In this economy would you suggest borrowing money to invest, that would be pretty stupid considering the short term return and the interest you'll pay over the span of that time. You will lose money... Good adive though.....not

What planet does this writer live on? "Keep total debt payments below 30% of your gross income"

Good idea if you make $100,000 per year and can afford to do that.  If you're working middle class, forget it.  

I like Dave Ramsey. I listen to his radio show when I can, I bought his book, and think he has some good ideas. BUT I definitely agree that his program is designed for someone who needs protecting from himself. I don't like extremists whether they are talking about finances, politics or religion, so I prefer a more middle of the road approach.

I have debt. More than I would like but not more than I can handle. It's all at 5% or less and I have a 760+ credit score. I should be free of the credit card debt within a year or so. I could significantly cut back on my lifestyle and be debt free but why live on "beans and rice, rice and beans" as Dave says. What if tomorrow never comes? I want to enjoy life now. I prefer to take vacations (paying cash not financing them) and share the experience with my kids. I would rather they remember good times than a miserable frugality just to become debt free. I do plan to pass on some of Dave's wisdom to my kids- it's important to me to make them fiscally responsible but hopefully they will never need to take it the extreme.

I'll get there eventually, but for me it's about balancing everything- enjoying life now, saving for the future and not about taking it to the extremes.

Clearly, Dough Roller has never heard of paying off a mortgage.  He seems to assume they're "forever".   Also, Ramsey never said you should not borrow for any reason: purchasing a long term asset (something that goes up in value) like a house, is something he's okay with.  Since people often have trouble distinguishing what is a "long term hard asset" (like a house) from things that are not assets (go down in value) like cars, boats, etc. the advice to only borrow for "long term hard assets" is of limited usefulness.  Likewise, saving money by doing the 0% introductory rate credit card transfer runs many risks: 1) the fees asssociated with the transfer, 2) the privilege of credit companies to change the interest rate and terms at any time for any reason (its in the fine print).  

Overall, not a very helpful article.

Lots of peoples lives have changed for the better because of Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.  I haven't heard any "life changing for the better" stories from people who keep debt and have things on leases.  A lot of the good, helpful financial points made in this article are just regurgitated ideas from one of Dave Ramsey's books.  Of course there are people out there that want us to continutally be in debt with lenders...that's how they make their money!

You take 100 U.S. consumers and have them attempt to follow your plan. Take another 100 U.S. consumers and have them follow Dave Ramsey's plan. His will outperform every time. Don't agree? Take a look at the latest stats on consumer debt in the States. While you're at it, check out our latest savings rates which have now dipped into the negatives.

If 80% of U.S. citizens were uncontrolled, raging alcoholics, you probably wouldn't disagree with Mr. Ramsey's pleas for everyone to alcohol altogether.

You've been brainwashed by our culture of consumption.

Many people would get a lot out of your nuanced approach to debt. But with so many Americans drowning in debt, a little extremism on the subject is no vice.

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